All star UNITS!!! · Page 3 · C&C Labs Forums

Welcome Guest! You can not login or register.

Blbpaws
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#41

we read all of them Incia. Some are kind of far-fetched.

Mic I plan to include those but not the original Mammoth.

CommieDog
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#42

OK Incia, you can have a list too:

SSM Launcher -- I would like to see this to, as a general's promotion.
Nod Attack Buggy -- We decided to replace the Humvee with this.
Chem Warrior -- would be nice to have (could we reskin the Biohazard Technician?
Advanced Communication Center -- Blbpaws never said where the Ion Cannon would be launched. But it would be a long time to wait for radar, don't you think? (unless we made the Ion Cannon an upgrade...)
Tiberium Silo -- I don't think we could add it if we tried.
Advanced Guard Tower -- We were planning to implement this as an upgrade to the Guard Tower.
A-10 Strike -- As far as I know, we were plainning to keep it.
ORCA -- Already planned, but I don't know if we want to make it pad-based or not.
Apache -- Already planned as well, but with missiles (maybe 2 instead of 4).
Grenade Upgrade -- I liked the shotgun idea better for the Minigunner. But it might be worth giving to the Reds' rocket soldier. Or maybe we could just ditch him for the Flak Trooper and Grenadier.
Repair Facility -- This is made somewhat obsolete by the Generals engine.
Turret -- Already planned
Construction Yard -- Well I don't know, I was thinking of having one MCV and being unable to replace it. 😄
(Devil's Tongue) Flame Tank -- Did it have two nozzles?
Nationalism -- We're playing around with that idea.
AP Upgrades -- The Generals Elite doesn't have enough rocket weapons to make the AP Rocket upgrade worthwhile, but AP Bullets would be good.
Advanced Trainig -- Why shouldn't the Generals ELITE have it?

But enought of that it seems like you already made up your mind on that. But you never said what exactly you are going for on this mod. Do you want there to be themed teams at all? Or do you want it to be truly be all star where all of the teams get the best units from their games so that they could excel in nearly any catagory?

XrRydr wrote:

Like I said before, we want a little of both. Though now that I think of it, my idea of factions within each side may come into play. For example, you pointed out that most Nod units are biased in favor of stealty and senaky tactics. My idea was to have 3 factions within
each of the 3 main sides. For instance, the Tiberians would have both GDI and Nod to choose from, and each faction would receive a discount on their side's units. So while GDI bas access to Nod's sneaky units, they are less cost-effective than GDI's discounted brute force units. Thus, GDI will be best at brute force tactics, but they can use sneaky tactics if their opponent proves too resistive. Nod has the opposite scenario -- they would prefer sneaky units, but brute force would be an option.

I suppose your compromise on the heavy tank thing is pretty good. Ill just have to see how different the apocolypse and the overlord are.

XrRydr wrote:

Well, I was thinking that the Overlord would have more armor than the Apocalypse (1100 vs 800, but Lion raised compatibility issues), be upgradeable with base defenses like in ZH, and be able to crush most vehicles (but possibly not the Apocalypse, since it's almost as big). The Apocalypse, on the other hand, would have more firepower (it was awesome against buildings -- you can't deny that, Lion), come with a free anti-aircraft weapon and auto-heal, and only crush infantry.

...So would you still want ideas about upgrades and generals power for the reds and gens?

XrRydr wrote:

YES! Especially for upgrades.

Under NO circumstances will the so called "Heavy tanks" squish (squash) the other tanks. It absolutely will not happen.

Blbpaws wrote:

That's kind of unfair to the Overlord.

I'm pretty much decided that the Overlord will be the only tank with built on upgrades though a long winded essay might change my mind.

Blbpaws wrote:

I agree with that stance, unless we see an idea for a totally different unit with totally different upgrades.

Yes, I plan a complete overhaul of the units page once I finish school (one more week) -- Commie if you're out already feel free to do that.

Blbpaws wrote:

I can make the list, but you will nead to upload it.

I like the Radar Van idea.

Blbpaws wrote:

I thought you might. After all, you have it on the staff's unit list. 😄

BTW include the minelayer, it wouldnt be hard to balance.

Lion wrote:

(I think) we have that planned for the mod.

Also keeping same prices will invariably screw up the game as the prices from the different CNCs seem to go up everytime a new one is released (cnc infantry = 100 generals infantry = 150-300. cnc MBT 600-800 generals = 800-1100..)

Lion wrote:

Yes, I'd imagine that we would need to tweak a few prices when it cannot be avoided (3000 for an MCV but only 1000 for a Dozer?!?) But I would prefer 'under the hood' changes that would be less noticeable than price.

Edited by user 21 years ago | Reason: Not specified

CommieDog: Because someone has to do your dirty work for you

incia
100% (Exalted)
Commander in Chief Topic Starter

21 years ago

#43

Look at that pic and see how the flame tank looks like.

And I was thinking if the Tiberiun Dawn armt had an radar for CC as General has... but that the Advanced Communication Center could have it also. Just for an extra small thing.

And I thought the Tiber army was lacking on upgrades, so I thought the Advanced training would fit them.

Luckie
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#44

Well, issues aside with 'where' things can go, i think we oughta look at what would be closest to the original experience.

I think mic brought up a great point when he said that fans would cry bloody murder if we didnt have both tanks. So, just to make them very happy, why don't we have both but not allow them to shoot on eachother ;)
Just Kidding.

Grenadier - Sweet idea. Flak trooper would work too.

I still wish we could use an Engineer. That would make for some very interesting gameplay. I remember the days when you sent 2 tanks and few infantry in to take out a little of the defenses and snuck in 10 engineers, only 3 of which lived, lol. But i will be happy with the spy. I just wish he could steal technology, but I doubt that would work. That is, unless there is some sort of cheat that could be implimented. Like they way the Generals AI can cheat.

Click Here to Visit Broken Wall Films

MicScoTho
78.75% (Friendly)
Administrator

21 years ago

#45

still wish we could use an Engineer. That would make for some very interesting gameplay.

If by interesting gameplay you mean crazy balancing issues... heh

Flippy
76.25% (Friendly)
Colonel

21 years ago

#46

Don't put in the gay mech titan! Mechs suck!

Army: A body of men assembled to rectify the mistakes of the diplomats.

XrRydr
100% (Exalted)
Major

21 years ago

#47

Hey, well thanks Blbpaws for a possible job offer and I would love to be a part of the team, and if someone could teach me something that I could help with that would be good because I would feel bad for me to be a part of the team and not have done anything. I looked at some of the ini stuff at deezire but it seemed a little complicated but I dunno. But anyways, I think ill try to post upgrade and general powers in their respective threads in the forums, it would be more organized like that. But it's funny to see you guys still in school, I have been out since May 21, but I go back the 2nd week in august. (I live in Marietta, GA) Now commiedog, the three "generals" within each team may work, but you would need to make the differences strong enough for them to be worth using. Would you make them the same thing except for prices? Or would you make bigger changes such as firepower speed, or other abilities and units? The reason why I don't like the slave miner is because I think it can get money faster than regular harvesters. The differnce is that the slave miner can move and redeploy itself next to the closet supply source when one is empty. For the standard miner, either you would live with a much bigger distance to travel for supplies, or go build another refinery. I'm not going to comment on any other units until you update the page, but the minelayer for the reds seems like a good idea. And if you are somewhat going to have "themes" for each team, be sure to share those.

"Hit it hard, and wish it well"
-Claude Gordon

Lion
100% (Exalted)
Colonel

21 years ago

#48

Well if you don’t mind ill chip in with more opinions, in no particular order...

1- I think that having 2 games to work with can make both the tiberians and RA guys have 2 armies EACH, with their own units.. giving price differences will simply make it really hard to make fun, balanced sides, and having same units for GDI and NOD seems daft to me at least

2-omg the mammoth tank is out? i thought it was the absolute unit that resisted its way for 2 games, had a MK2 made so much it was loved and still got its little clone apoc and overlord! I thought it was THE cnc unit that set it apart from other RTS... But the apoc is really the mammoth with a different label, its the same unit (unless you make its armour weak and guns overpowered)

3- Overlord should still crush tanks and yes the apoc was really good against buildings BUT ra2 had the weakest structures in the WHOLE of the CNC UNIVERSE, a couple of GIs deployed could raze an entire base extremely quick! You played Eagle Red and it had base buildings get double health to fix that problem... i think still proportionally the apoc has more armor and less firepower than an overlord, and there’s the visual side as well, the overlord has HUGE cannons, so big they look awful to me lol the apoc was so much chunkier and there’s still the matter that having auto-heal on weaker units is a lot less useful

4- the grenadier should be present along with a flak trooper, one extra infantry wont hurt... Spies should be able to sneak into the enemies tech center and steal some sort of upgrade or unit, like the RA2 spy could. showing their build queues is a bit hard to include i think so leave it out...

5-Please god tell me the tesla coil will be in! Try to add the 3 shot thing where it would do up to 3 quick zaps for weaker units and a full long zap for tanks with lots of health left!

6- about prices, well i think making units better/worse than they are instead of a price change will look nicer but then the units will be weaker and the cnc factions will be all like gla full of cheap crappy units, which isn’t necessarily bad (gla is good)but will be unfaithful

7- making an irreplaceable MCV will make winning easy: use gen powers and planes to destroy it and they cant rebuild it , game over in the long run... cant you just make it an immobile unit (con yard) that has an unlimited building range? or make the engineers come out of con yard and they build stuff so you have both units in... also i see engineers like demo bikes, they are expensive and are better for taking out undefended expansions, just make them weak and slow as they were anyways and see how it goes... at least make them repair a building to full health when they enter it giving the player more strategic opportunities..

8- unit with built-on upgrades: component tower... i think there should be a team for each game, so the tiberian sun guys would have it as their defence while the original tiberians would have their guard towers, but that would be a LOT of work

edit:
GOSH my spelling is awful 😎 fixed most of it now!

Edited by user 21 years ago | Reason: Not specified

Creator of the ZH Advanced AI MOD.
Get the latest version here:
http://www.cncgeneralsworld.com/page.asp?page=zerohour:advancedaimod

Flippy
76.25% (Friendly)
Colonel

21 years ago

#49

Generals?
Generals Elite:
General Townes: Laser and USA
General Juhziz: Demolitions and GLA
General Kwai: Tanks and China

Reds
Korea General: Air Force
Iraq General: Nuke
(Are we doing Yuri?)

Tibs
NOD Flame General

Army: A body of men assembled to rectify the mistakes of the diplomats.

Blbpaws
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#50

we can't make that many radical changes (such as 9 separate sides) in the first version. It's possible for later versions.

Aside from that I'm not going to comment on much else until I can finalize exactly what we want to do. Just keep the comments up.

And Commie, if you have time could you go through the staff design doc and just update it with anything we have decided since then. Once you do that give it to me and I'll update it. Actually Commie, it should be possible for you to edit the page yourself by logging in as a staff member and clicking "edit Conent Pages." Pick the page you want to edit and you can do it. If you can't figure it out or if it doesn't work let me know and I'll do it.

Luckie
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#51

Hm, interesting idea about the conyard. I wonder if it would be possible to build buildings just like RA/2, or atleast similar. Anyone know if it's POSSIBLE?

Click Here to Visit Broken Wall Films

Blbpaws
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#52

I believe Commie said it wasn't.

Lion
100% (Exalted)
Colonel

21 years ago

#53

Maybe the CY builds an invisible unit (to account for price and build time cameo and descriptions are of the building you wanna build), the unit would have speed 1000000 and then once it gets to the rally point (construction site) lethal damage is done to it and a building is placed at its position (wont have a build-up animation). OR the unit could simply build the building(by scripting) for free once it is out and very fast, you wouldn’t see it building as it is invisible, just a building coming up in the middle of nowhere. That should be fairly easy with some scripting and INI tweaking.
The big problem is balance... to prevent us from just building the first defence right at the enemies base wed have to add checks such as:
IF unit is further than X from *insert objectlist for buildings* THEN kill unit and refund player, + play sound cannot build there
or instead of distance from building just
IF outside myouterperimeter THEN kill unit.

that would just about solve it but it would look daft as you’d build the whole thing just to get a failure and refund, so to go around that then wed have to add a replacement unit and give it focus and play some "pick another location" file so the player could simply click on another location. Of course adding a check "IF cursor NOT in *area allowed to build* THEN change cursor to red square and not let him tell the invisible unit to move towards that place" but it seems kind of impossible form what I seen from WB so far... anyways its easy to go around many things, it just takes some time to figure it out... My idea might work who knows (provided you understood what I mean!)

Edited by user 21 years ago | Reason: Not specified

Creator of the ZH Advanced AI MOD.
Get the latest version here:
http://www.cncgeneralsworld.com/page.asp?page=zerohour:advancedaimod

Blbpaws
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#54

I understand. It might be possible that way and if CommieDog can do it great and if not I'm happy with it as it is.

CommieDog
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#55

1- I think that having 2 games to work with can make both the tiberians and RA guys have 2 armies EACH, with their own units.. giving price differences will simply make it really hard to make fun, balanced sides, and having same units for GDI and NOD seems daft to me at least

Lion wrote:

Having different armies for each storyline takes away the point of the mod: to make the teams from each storyline come together and fight the other storylines for supremacy. If each side is fun and balanced to begin with, then making minor changes shouldn't be too hard to balance (certainly more so than either the 'Let's make each general have 3 overpowered and underpriced units and make the rest overpriced!' ZH Generals or adding a complete new side.)

3- yes the apoc was really good against buildings BUT ra2 had the weakest structures in the WHOLE of the CNC UNIVERSE, a couple of GIs deployed could raze an entire base extremely quick! You played Eagle Red and it had base buildings get double health to fix that problem...

Lion wrote:

It's not the RA2 structures that were weak -- it was the anti-building ability of the units that were too strong, thanks to the building armor they implemented in RA2. Numberwise, the RA2 structures are just as strong as their TS equivalents.

there’s the visual side as well, the overlord has HUGE cannons, so big they look awful to me lol the apoc was so much chunkier

Lion wrote:

Right now, the Apocalypse is smaller than the Overlord. And chunky armor doesn't mean good armor -- it means poor Soviet design.

there’s still the matter that having auto-heal on weaker units is a lot less useful

Lion wrote:

Alternatively, there's the problem of giving expensive build-on upgrades to weak units.

Spies should be able to sneak into the enemies tech center and steal some sort of upgrade or unit, like the RA2 spy could. showing their build queues is a bit hard to include i think so leave it out...

Lion wrote:

Except there's the problem of how limited the Saboteur's infiltrate code is. 😞

5-Please god tell me the tesla coil will be in! Try to add the 3 shot thing where it would do up to 3 quick zaps for weaker units and a full long zap for tanks with lots of health left!

Lion wrote:

Yes, the Tesla Coil will be added. But there is no way to let a unit detect the health of other units and switch weapons accordingly.

7- making an irreplaceable MCV will make winning easy: use gen powers and planes to destroy it and they cant rebuild it , game over in the long run... cant you just make it an immobile unit (con yard) that has an unlimited building range?

Lion wrote:

Run your sarcasm detector over that statement again, especially the smiley at the end. Building range is essentially hard-coded to zero. And would you like people being able to plop units anywhere while you as the Gens would have to waste time moving your dozer to do the same thing?

8- unit with built-on upgrades: component tower... i think there should be a team for each game, so the tiberian sun guys would have it as their defence while the original tiberians would have their guard towers, but that would be a LOT of work

Lion wrote:

Plus it wouldn't feel like they're working together anymore if we make them too distinct.

CommieDog: Because someone has to do your dirty work for you

Blbpaws
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#56

OK, let me commment on a bunch of these.

1) I agree with Commie on this. It's simple the point of the mod.
3) I don't think this really matters. We will make sure it's balanced.

I'm not sure how yet, but we will make the three big tanks balanced.

We'll see about Auto heal. Like Commie alluded to, what I don't want to do is have there be a high level upgrade which affects a low-level unit that'd you'd never build at that stage of the game.

CommieDog
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#57

Lion wrote:

A couple problems with your method:

You cannot make a command button to both construct a unit AND set a rally point. It's one or the other, so a player would have to set the rally point automatically. Can the AI do that?
The buildup animation would be a problem; if you set the animation to play once when the Prism Tower is at PRISTINE ConditionState, then the buildup will play every time you heal it from DAMAGED to PRISTINE.
The only way to tell the dummy unit to self-destruct and plop the building is with a timer. There is no way to tell the unit to self-destruct without placing the building is by deleting it instead of just destroying it. But the only way to delete a unit is also with a timer, so you would never have an option to use both in a 'IF stopped by some time, destroy and call building ELSE delete' logic.
Since there is no way to set a range on a rally point, A dummy unit that had not reached the destination in time would self-destruct on a line between the NaturalRallyPoint (the default rally point) and the set rally point. If you had a long enough timer, then it could reach any point on the map, which is a problem in itself (balancing issues).

CommieDog: Because someone has to do your dirty work for you

Luckie
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#58

Then people would find a way to run this unit into any of their oponent's buldings 😉 Hahahaha.

Click Here to Visit Broken Wall Films

Blbpaws
100% (Exalted)
Administrator

21 years ago

#59

lol. I'll take your word for it Commie.

incia
100% (Exalted)
Commander in Chief Topic Starter

21 years ago

#60

On TD you couldn't build far from your base... every building had to be touching the other building.
Will you add the CY or not?
Me not really understand if it is possible or not.

Important Information: