OK. There are some great tutorials on www.deezire.net if you want to look.

Possibly, Incia.

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Holy ****! 😮 Actual comprehensive comments on the All Stars ideas list! It's time for another one of my lengthy lists:

• Ghost Stalker -- We were playing around with the idea of giving him C4s as an upgrade.
• Medic -- 4 infantry does look a little skimpy...But it's hard to model soldiers.
• Flame Tank -- A new model is certain. We just haven't decided on the TD or TS model. We'd try to keep to the original price (wasn't that 900?)
• APC -- We want to avoid making a Troop Crawler clone. I agree about the number of passengers, though, and I would lower the price to 700.
• Medium Tank -- We already decided to replace it with the Titan.
• Mammoth Tank -- I wouldn't mind replacing with with the Mammoth Mk. II as a general's promotion.
• Light Tank -- We don't want too many Nod units.
• Stealth Tank -- I had proposed this as a general's promotion.
• Engineer -- We currently have no plans to add the Engineer. It would create serious balancing issues.
• Mobile Sensor Array -- It's a little too specialized for Generals.
• MLRS -- Well, it's supposed to be artillery.
• Recon Bike -- I agree, it would make a good stealth-detecting/basic anti-aircraft unit.
• Disruptor -- It would be good as siege artillery. We'll have to see if there's any room for it.
• ORCA Fighter -- We don't want Comanche clones now...But it would be a headache to have two similar pad aircraft. And the charge cannon might make a good upgrade.
• Helipad -- It goes without saying that helicopters demand a helipad. But good job for pointing out that lapse. And bad job Blbpaws for leting the lapse slip in there in the first place!😠
• Guard Tower -- I haven't even begun to code Tiberian units, so I can't say how powerful the missiles will be. But I intend to make them good enough to be the Tiberian's sole anti-aircraft defense, since that is what the list calls for.
• Ion Cannon -- I have no idea how we will do this.
• Weed Refinery -- I always thought that there was more than enough incentive to build Supply Drop Zones in Generals. Still, A tiberium-themed upgrade would be a nice touch.

Whew! I'll do the rest tomorrow. XrRydr, If you have this much to say about the units and buildings, them you must be teeming with ideas for upgrades and general's powers. Please share them!😄

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Flame tanks cost: 800

FYI in teh staff forum one the Helipad is in there. I realized my error after Mic and I set up the site so I corrected it on my Harddrive. Then when I uploaded it to the staff forum, the Helipad was in. So there! lol.

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Honestly, I never thought about the upgrades and general powers but here are some ideas. But before I get started I have to say that I really don't think it would be a good idea for team tiberia to have those heavy tanks like the mammoth. You should really only have one team that is brute force themed and having tiberia have a mammoth and the red alert team have an apocylpse is redundant... but it's your mod so you can if you want.

Well of course all of the barracks will have the capture upgrade for their basic unit. I think it would be cool to give the minigunner a shotgun upgrade which would be powerful at short range (there was a shotgun trooper in renegade). Yes, a c4 upgrade would probably be good for ghoststalker. Well I suppose 4 infantry it okay, but if you can more would be good. I think some sort of upgrade for a vehicle like a hum-vee or a tank should let it shoot in the air because I can't see any tiberia vehicles that shoot in the air right now, unless the mrls can. An upgrade to increase speed of treaded vehicles would be good. The charge cannon for the orca would really have no relation to C&C but it would still be good for hit and run tactics. It would function somewhat like the yamato gun on the battlecruiser from starcraft if you ever played that game, making a good upgrade.You could also add an upgrade to let the bomber carry to extra bombs. And as far as the weed refinery goes I think it would be good to have this be the ghostalker building. Maybe you wouldn't need this to build him, but could hold the c4 upgrade, and some other things like where ever he walks he spreads tiberium (toxin). Then maybe another upgrade that lets bombers add tiberium to their bombs.
For generals powers their could be a drop pod thing where soldiers are sent from the phildelphia, with three levels perhaps? Then there could be a stealth tank ambush where either 5 stealth tanks appear anywhere, or there could also be levels. If you did make the mammoth mark 2 it should that a general power, possible a build limit. If you made the disruptor that should also be bought with a point. There could a chemical missile which would spread tiberium as a general power. There could also be a banshee strike. There could also be something like a MSA reveal where it could act like the satellite from the USA but it would work a little longer so that it could be worth a point. I'll wait until you talk about the red alert and generals units to talk about their upgrades and powers.

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alright, sounds good. Thanks for your help.

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I'm talking about the public one, since it it the list that XrRydr seemed to be looking at. And don't mistake that smiley for rage -- I'm too mad at having my |33+ |-|4x0R post vanishing. 😬

Anyway, time for another big list! 😄

• Red Tactics -- Actually, the Tiberians were supposed to be the 'brute force' side.
• GI -- I'm not sure about this one. The GI's deploy feature was nice, but Conscript rushes were fun.
• Grenadier -- It's kind of hard to hit aircraft with grenades. 😄
• Spy -- If I remember correctly, the Red Alert team's tactics were highly specialized units and intelligence superiority. I had a limpet mine upgrade idea for the Spy that would fit the second one perfectly.
• Chrono Legionnaire -- Not possible, at least as far as I know.
• Desolator -- Hmmm...
• Rhino -- We already decided to replace it with the Grizzly.
• V3 -- We still want to keep the V3 as siege artillery, while making the Prism Tank into support artillery.
• Flak Track -- This is a sticky problem for me. I like flak, and as Incia pointed out, we don't have any. But I like the Gattling Tank too, and two low-tech anti-aircraft units would be redundant. But I hate the APC (which we already have for the Tiberians) and would be glad to be rid of it for the Reds.
• Apocalypse -- No turret upgrades, I promise. And likely no vehicle-crushing ability, either.
• Chrono Tank -- We want to bring old units back in this mod, not add new ones. Also see comment on Chrono Legionnaire.
• Battle Fortress -- That would be fun as a general's promotion, but only with some good infantry to fill it.
• Harrier -- I would be uncomfortable with one side having no pad-based aircraft. We could always slow it down a bit and give it more armor to make it feel different than a Raptor.
• Siege Chopper -- one of the staff members proposed this, but it was turned down due to impossibility. Generals doesn't have a real deploy function that allows units to change their altitude. Plus, we're low on RA1 units.
• Patriot Battery -- We decided on the AA Gun because it would be a bit more unique, considering that the Tiberian Guard Tower will shoot missiles.
• Flame Tower -- I'd imagine that we would make every defense structure detect stealth, except for maybe the AA Gun.
• Slave Miner -- What's wrong with it? It would certainly be more unique than a simple harvester.
• Generals Tactics -- Yeah, bullets and explosives are so high-tech that even the low-tech GLA has them. 😄
• Minigunner -- I'm not sure about this one, but with the limited space we have we need to select units that protray an entire side, not a general or country.
• Laser Infantry -- See Chrono Tank.
• Terrorist -- A little redundant with the Bomb Truck.
• Battlemaster -- Certainly we have too many tanks for the Generals side. I'd prefer to take out the Paladin as well and put the Scorpion in for both of them.
• Overlord -- Why remove it?
• Inferno Cannon -- I agree.
• Microwave Tank -- If you want vehicle disabling, then maybe the ECM Tank would be better.
• Sentry Drone -- The fact that you have to suggest all those improvments for it reflects how much of a worthless POS that unit is. 😠 It's slow, weakly armored, and has an overpriced crappy gun that does nothing but give its position away. I ought to...Oops, I'm ranting again. 😞 We already have all the functions it would provide in other units: stealth detection from the Radar Van, trasnport from the Chinook, and weak gun courtesy of the Ranger.
• Bomb Truck -- Why no bio-bonb upgrade?
• Helix -- I can see that the Helix conflicts with the Overlord, but why the Stealth Fighter?

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Why not give each side a heavy tank, then offer each one a special upgrade that will give it a special advantage. Make each heavy tank have very little effect on other heavy tanks, that way it adds more special tactics to the game play. Suggestions would be like:

Defensive:

Apocalypse Tank: Bullet Proof Armour (50% reduction in damage by bullets, built at side's upgrade center thing)
Mammoth Tank: Bullet Proof Armour (50% reduction in damage by bullets, built at side's upgrade center thing)
Overlord Tank: Super Metal (heals self very slighty after each shot, built at side's upgrade center thing)

Offensive:

Apocalypse Tank: Auto Loading (Increased firing speed by XX%, built at side's upgrade center thing)
Mammoth Tank: Mined Shots (Alternative Fire Mode for a target area, must be purchased at the upgrade center. Shoots 3 mines at a time)
Overlord Tank: Turret Gun (same as in generals)

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lol this is turning into some sort of heated debate. Well about your "heavy tank" idea... I really don't like the idea of all three sides having a two-barrled, slow-moving, powerful monster. That is the characteristic of a brute force army and to have in all of them would just make things boring. But before I go further we to clear up on a few things. What are the aims of mod exactly? I was making a lot of guesses as to what *I* would be cool and make it more fun, not as to what you want, because I didn't know what you want. What do you want as far as the themes for each team? But what you will surely need to stress is diversity. Having units that appear across the teams that are nearly the same are no fun at all. You should have teams that have some types of units where they are strong at, and some units where they are weak at. Like in tiberian sun, nod had incredible artillery, gdi did not. gdi had great tanks and brute force, nod did not. And in RA2, they gave Soviets brute force and a powerful artillery unit and it was still balanced. You shouldn't feel like all teams should have good units for all situations. If all teams could attack brute force, or sneakily, or with good air or whatever, there would be no diversity or fun tactics to be made. I just say this because I see that you are suggesting units that would follow the no weakness sort of gameplay. It's the things like all teams having massive tanks, or all teams having powerful artillery, or all teams having pad based aircraft. But if that is what you want then tell me and I can give you ideas on how to choose good units and ideas based on that. I don't want to make ideas based on thinking that you don't like. I mean, if you want it to be truly an all-star type thing where the best of all of those type of units come together then that is ok, and I can adjust to that. I just think it would be more fun if each team had major strenghts and weaknesses that are obvious. A good example is the GLA. They are a very specialized team in that they have no air or any powereful tanks, and they have workers instead of dozers. They also specialize more in more cheaper units instead of less, more powerful units. But they also have no power plants to worry about, and the buildings have holes. They can also be sneaky, and can use tunnel networks. Themes for each team can make it more fun. So just tell me what you are thinking as far as your goal for this mod. Also, try to update somewhere if you are adding new units. You never said that generals elite would have the radar van. Anyways, I think that the helix is overpowered anyway, but elite needed more air and I thought that stealth bomber would be more interesting than a raptor, and they already had the mig. I only said the microwave tank because they already had lots of china units. I said explosives only on the bomb truck because in the stroyline it said that they were big on explosives, and so that fit. Same thign for terrorist. Scorpion would be fine for generals. And I only suggested Grenadier because like I said it's ok for teams to have weaknesses. In red alert the soviets didn't have any anti-air infantry and they lived to tell about it lol. Getting the feeling that I tend to make long posts?

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If only I could let you see the staff forums...


Like it or hate it, every CnC game to date as a slow-moving, double-barreled tank (except TS, but RA had two to make up for it). It's a classic element in CnC, and no side would be properly represented without it. Which brings us to...


That's the tightrope we have to walk when we plan this mod. If we make the sides too homogenous, then we will get complaints of, "WTF ALL TEH SIDES R TEH SAME Y DID U MAKE 3 SIDES IF THEIR JUST TEH SAME 🤐!!!!!!1111!!11q" (I'm not trying to imply that you sound like this, it's just a dramatization to get the point across.) If we give each side a definite theme, like sneakiness for the Tiberians, then we hear, "OMFG U SAID TEH SIDES COME FROM BOTH SIDES IN A STORY BUT AL I SEE R NOD UNITS 4 TEH TIBS 🤐1!!!!11!1w" We have to strike a balance somewhere, even if that means being flamed by both sides.


I'd hardly call the V3 'powerful.' The rocket just took too long to reload and was too easily shot down.


But think about what would happen in a side that had no siege artillery fought against a side that specializes in base defenses. There would be no strategy; the person with no artillery would only be able to win by rushing the base defense player before they could build a solid defensive line. Once the player was well defended, they could slowly wear down the no artillery player and win. Strategy in this case is choosing the right side, and the game becomes a glorified verson of rock-paper-scissors. This is the pitfall of heterogenuity, and Zero Hour was ruined by it. (The example was Tank General vs SW General.)


I always felt that the GLA were out of place in Generals. They seemed more specialized than either the USA or China. So much, in fact, that one wonders if EAP mixed them up at one point (is that why the MiG is so strong and the Raptor so weak?) Plus their specialties worked straight into the rock-paper-scissors system: China was baffled by their movements, but the USA could pick them out easily.


I told you so, Blbpaws. At least he was nice about it. 😄


Didn't they lose the war, though? I MEAN UNBALANCD!!!!!1111!!1one11!!! 😄

And now for yet another list (😏) of comments:

• Helix -- Even Helix massers agree that the Helix is overpowered. They just disagree with the rest of us on whether that's a good or bad thing. We could tweak it a bit if we decided to add it. But now I'm thinking that they use the same system of upgrades and are not diverse.
• Stealth Fighters -- Both the Stealth Fighter and Aurora are primarily anti-structure. I wouldn't have a problem with one of them, but having both means that they will step on each other's toes in terms of usefulness.
• Microwave Tank -- If a side has too many units from another side, it's worth taking a look to see if those units can be replaced rather than having to adapt another side's unit to fit a particular role.
• Bomb Truck -- Just because they're big on explosives doesn't mean they have to be small on toxins. We're trying to put the entire GLA into the Generals Elite, not just the Demo General. Dr. Thraxx might not like that. 😄
• Terrorist -- See above.

Anyway, now for my compromise on the Heavy Tank issue:

1. Tibs: The Tiberians may seem a bit short-changed in this category -- they don't get a conventional two shooter. They get something more powerful instead: The Mammoth Mk. II. But they have to expend a Generals' Point to get it, and only one can be deployed at a time.
2. Reds: The Red Alert team gets an offense-oriented Apocalpse: not as much armor as the Overlord, but more powerful tank shells. It would be a good unit to lead the charge.
3. Gens: Generals Elite receives the Overlord, tweaked with more armor but less firepower. It becomes more of a meat shield unit, either transporting infantry (Bunker), healing nearby units (Propaganda Tower), or deciding to carry a more offense-themed unit into battle (Gattling Cannon).

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And the Overlord will be able to crush enemy tanks... will the Mammoth Mark do the same?
And Overlord able to heal surrounding units by Prop tower.
Apocalypse (did they auto-heal?). AA-rockets.
Mammoth mark did auto-heal to 100% health. Also dual rail-guns and AA-rockets.

I propouse some units:
SSM: Surface-to-surface missile launcher:
Shoots 2 long ranged missiles, makes an inferno when hitting a target.
NOD buggy:
same as hum-vee but faster and less armour.
Chem-Warrior:
Maybe replace with Toxin rebel?
Advanced Communication Centre:
Would give access to ION cannon and run the radar at the same time.
KILL THE "SILOS NEEDED!" IDEA
Advanced Guard tower:
Maybe shoot a rocket barrage like Rocket buggy???
A-10 support air craft attack as a general promotion.
ORCA:
Same as Comanchee except without the chain-gun.
Apache:
Same as comanchee except without the rockets.
Grenade as an upgrade for Tiberiun first infantry. Would be like flash-bangs but hurt both infantries and tanks, not able to clear out garrisoned buildings.
Repair facility:
This would bring fun old times back!!!
Turret:
Same barrel as one Medium tank, but cheaper and able to be repaired.
And maybe Construction Yard... that was the biggest thing in C&C.
Flame tank renamed to Devils tongue flame tank:
Not able to do fire wall.
Has 2 barrelled flame barrels. 2X stronger as Dragon tank.
Nationalism upgrade for RA.
Generals if they are so high-tech they should have AP bullets & rockets.
Tiberian can maybe have the advanced training upgrade.

Well true all the C&C games had a really heavy tank, they never had it so that both teams had one. But enought of that it seems like you already made up your mind on that. But you never said what exactly you are going for on this mod. Do you want there to be themed teams at all? Or do you want it to be truly be all star where all of the teams get the best units from their games so that they could excel in nearly any catagory? I suppose your compromise on the heavy tank thing is pretty good. Ill just have to see how different the apocolypse and the overlord are. And is always a good idea to update your units page on the website so that people aren't looking at outdated information. ...So would you still want ideas about upgrades and generals power for the reds and gens?

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I have made another topic about upgrades, go check that topic out and give your suggestions over there too.
And will the hijacker be able to hijack the Mammoth mark2???
And will the Battle Fortress be able to crush enemy tanks?

OK, I have a bunch of long lists to make too, I guess.

First of all, XrRydr, thank you very much for the comments. I find them very helpful, even if it's because it stops Commie from ranting at me. 🙂 I'm considering giving you a staff position, though you'd be hamming in on my "have no talents yet somehow still be in charge" job. :)

Under NO circumstances will the so called "Heavy tanks" squish (squash) the other tanks. It absolutely will not happen.

I'm pretty much decided that the Overlord will be the only tank with built on upgrades though a long winded essay might change my mind.

I like the Bomb truck having both upgrades. Plus I'm scared that Dr. Thrax might come and kill me. :)

Yes, I plan a complete overhaul of the units page once I finish school (one more week) -- Commie if you're out already feel free to do that.

I like the Radar Van idea.

And BTW all, what's so overpowering about the helix? I find they are easy to shoot down. But maybe that's just me.

Nice comments all.

One last note: I am in the process of aquiring another modeller so once we get aCC back and this new modeller we'll have a bunch of models coming. 🙂

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Hmm... after 5 posts by XrRydr, you are already thinking about giving him a job?
I feel left out 😞

One thing about the building names:
Tank production facilities:
Generals: Arms dealer
Tiberian: Weapons factory
RA: War factory
Unit training centers:
General: Detention camp
Tiberian: Hand of [insert name]
RA: Barracks

Incia, his 5 posts were long and helpful.

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CommieDog i think the overlord is already a unit with low armor (few demo units, couple planes or a weak gen point to kill?) and high firepower... the mammoth had lots of armour and not so heavy firepower (they didnt kill tanks nearly as quick as an overlord and survived a nuke IIRC). Besides the mammoth is much more chunky and has smaller cannons.

I feel its like getting a bird and a fish, cutting the birds wings off and drowning it while throwing the fish off a cliff... id go with the other way around!
And i read you are using the apoc, well lol the same applies esthetically i suppose... are we not including the original Mammoth at all???

BTW include the minelayer, it wouldnt be hard to balance. Also keeping same prices will invariably screw up the game as the prices from the different CNCs seem to go up everytime a new one is released (cnc infantry = 100 generals infantry = 150-300. cnc MBT 600-800 generals = 800-1100..)

anyways thats my long 2 cents, its your mod

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we probably won't include the mammoth.

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First of all I'd like to say that this is a very nice discussion that is going on here - its good to finally have some opinions.

Now personally, I'd like to include both the apocalypse and the overlord. If we don't, fans will cry bloody murder! One of the biggest responses I saw after we first announced the mod was: sweet, now I'll finally be able to see who wins when an apocalypse and an overlord battle 1v1. And this is where our current poll question comes in - "Tank Battle Royal - Who Wins?". Naturally, I figured, why not let the fans decide? Not that anything has to be set in stone, but why go against the will of the majority? Its only been a day or so, but right now its looking like the Overlord.

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You guys don't post feedback about my posts...
Have you even read them?