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CommieDog Offline
#1 Posted : Monday, April 16, 2007 9:38:58 PM(UTC)
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I just noticed something off about the Tiberium refineries (or at least the GDI version): when you sell one, it doesn't take the price of the free Harvester away from the cost before calculating the refund. This means that you can essentially get a full refund on any GDI Refineries you own (as long as it is in perfect condition).

Although this doesn't seem like much, it allows people to build a Refinery near each Tiberium field and then sell the Refinery when the field is depleted at no additional cost beyond what you would pay for a Harvester from the War Factory. This means that players can gather Tiberium more quickly without worrying about queues and also get some free temporary Tiberium capacity. I'm surprised that no one else mentioned this before.

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randomperson Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, April 16, 2007 11:29:28 PM(UTC)
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I have found lokking at some peoples replays that they use it as an erly game way of getting a second harvister before they have a war factory.
MicScoTho Offline
#3 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:48:12 AM(UTC)
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I'm pretty sure that this was by design. The tactic was used frequently at the summit in March. As randomperson said, it essentially lets you purchase a second harvester before you have a war factory.

Selling refineries in this way is an essential part of many rush-tactics that I've seen.
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CG Apollos Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:01:31 AM(UTC)
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I use it alot. However, even though it is the same price (If you sell.) as well as getting a squad of GDI Riflemen, it takes 20 seconds to get a refinery if I remember right and only 10 seconds to get a harvester. It also means you have to be willing to pay for two harvestors. If you only have $1700 for example, you can't do the buy/sell transaction. Most people only use it if they want their war factory queues open and aren't using their build queues. You can build a ton of tanks while still expanding your economy this way. By the way, it works for all sides.

Edited by user Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:04:21 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Firion Corodix Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:06:41 AM(UTC)
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actually when you have: the cost of a refinery - what you get for selling one, then you can do the buy sell thing. just sell a refinery you already have and you have the money for a new one. of course dont do it when a harvester comes to unload but that's obvious. So you only really need 1k money in stock since you can sell a refinery to get the other 1k.
CG Apollos Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:11:32 AM(UTC)
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True, but you still need to keep a few of the full $2000 investments or else you can't unload.
incia Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:56:22 AM(UTC)
incia
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CommieDog wrote:

I just noticed something off about the Tiberium refineries (or at least the GDI version): when you sell one, it doesn't take the price of the free Harvester away from the cost before calculating the refund. This means that you can essentially get a full refund on any GDI Refineries you own (as long as it is in perfect condition).

Although this doesn't seem like much, it allows people to build a Refinery near each Tiberium field and then sell the Refinery when the field is depleted at no additional cost beyond what you would pay for a Harvester from the War Factory. This means that players can gather Tiberium more quickly without worrying about queues and also get some free temporary Tiberium capacity. I'm surprised that no one else mentioned this before.


I actually made a topic about this in the official forums, and I only got negative comments and abuse.

I also use this in all of my games. Same with Scrin and NOD.

It's especially good with Scrin because you also get a free Buzzer for early scouting. As people might have noticed I never even buy a Barracks in my games because of this.

Edited by user Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:59:38 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Blbpaws Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:34:54 PM(UTC)
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MicScoTho wrote:

I'm pretty sure that this was by design.


If that's the case, then that's just poor design. I've also seen this quite a bit, but the idea should never be to give away free Harvesters to players. The build and sell Refinery tactic was still used in RA2/YR (as the Soviets), even though you paid a premium for getting the Harvester without blocking your vehicle queue.
incia Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:43:53 PM(UTC)
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Someone said it have been in all Westwood games, and so on they wanted it to be here as well.
CommieDog Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:46:33 PM(UTC)
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That smells like pure cowpoo to me. After all, if EA wanted C&C 3 to feel like a Westwood game, then at least they could have given us a left-click interface! Shy I tested selling the Tiberium Refinery in TS and the Allied Ore Refinery in YR to test that theory anyway. The Tiberium Refinery sold for 1000, half its sticker price of 2000 (which is even worse than what I'm talking about for C&C 3, since Harvesters in TS cost 1400. 1000 + 1400 = 2400, which makes buying Havesters from the War Factory in TS counterproductive.) The Ore Refinery, on the other hand, sold for only 300. So I'm not sure what this deal about incorrect sell prices in all Westwood games is all about, unless it's a rumor spread by Tiberium storyline fanboys who try to discredit RA2 because it doesn't have their precious Kane. Shy

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incia Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2007 12:28:12 AM(UTC)
incia
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I call that lazyness.

They just wrote in the .ini files that all structures get 50 % refund. They never looked if they came with a free unit.

On Generals by the way (if I remember correctly) the Supply Centers never came with a Free Chinook or Supply Truck, which in this case was great.

Anyways, for my defense, why I never noticed this in TD for example was that I was a kid and I couldn't even english back then. Might also be the reason why I don't remember the "storyline" from TD. I would need to watch all the cut-scenes again to refresh my mind.
krit Offline
#12 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2007 1:02:03 AM(UTC)
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Incia wrote:

On Generals by the way (if I remember correctly) the Supply Centers never came with a Free Chinook or Supply Truck, which in this case was great.


It did came with a free Chinook/Supply Truck/Worker...

Edited by user Wednesday, April 18, 2007 1:30:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

incia Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2007 1:09:14 AM(UTC)
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Krit wrote:

Incia wrote:

On Generals by the way (if I remember correctly) the Supply Centers never came with a Free Chinook or Supply Truck, which in this case was great.


I did came with a free Chinook/Supply Truck/Worker...


Damn, well then in that case the same issue was in Generals.

Edited by user Wednesday, April 18, 2007 1:11:17 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

MicScoTho Offline
#14 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2007 4:56:07 AM(UTC)
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Blbpaws wrote:

If that's the case, then that's just poor design. I've also seen this quite a bit, but the idea should never be to give away free Harvesters to players.
To be fair, the harvesters aren't free. In essence, this tactic just allows you to use a structure build queue to get a harvester instead of a vehicle build queue.
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incia Offline
#15 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:27:46 AM(UTC)
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MicScoTho wrote:

Blbpaws wrote:

If that's the case, then that's just poor design. I've also seen this quite a bit, but the idea should never be to give away free Harvesters to players.
To be fair, the harvesters aren't free. In essence, this tactic just allows you to use a structure build queue to get a harvester instead of a vehicle build queue.


The fact why I don't like this feature is two things.

1. Refinery is now the only structure that gets 100 % refun when sold.
2. You get free units.
CG Apollos Offline
#16 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:42:26 AM(UTC)
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Incia wrote:

MicScoTho wrote:

Blbpaws wrote:

If that's the case, then that's just poor design. I've also seen this quite a bit, but the idea should never be to give away free Harvesters to players.
To be fair, the harvesters aren't free. In essence, this tactic just allows you to use a structure build queue to get a harvester instead of a vehicle build queue.


The fact why I don't like this feature is two things.

1. Refinery is now the only structure that gets 100 % refun when sold.
2. You get free units.
I agree with MicScoTho. Like I said, if you look at the time it takes to build, it is double what you could wait on a harvester from the war factory. This is only so you can continue expanding your economy by getting harvesters without using your vehicle queues. Big deal, a free GDI rifleman squad? You would need a really big amount of those to win the game and I don't think someone would continually buy and sell refineries just for them. I would rather spend that money on tanks instead of $1000 for a harvester and a rifleman squad.

It would be different for me if it was a free tank or something, but it is just a unit on the lowest end of the tech tree...
incia Offline
#17 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:48:11 AM(UTC)
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Man I'm getting pissed off at comments like that.

I don't give a damn about it's a useless unit, no matter if it would be a mobile rock you get from the Refinery, it's still just WRONG, it shouldn't happen, it's flaw, a bug, a stupid mistake from the developers. A retarded error. And it's easy as hell to fix. EA is just lazy and ignoring their flaws.

Refinery should get 50 % refund, in this case 500$. Period.
CG Apollos Offline
#18 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:15:16 AM(UTC)
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But if it was designed that way like Mic said, how is it a flaw, a bug, a stupid mistake from the developers, and a retarded error that EA ignores and is too lazy to fix?
Firion Corodix Offline
#19 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:15:44 AM(UTC)
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A design error... (from the point of view of some percentage of the players).

Edited by user Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:16:23 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

incia Offline
#20 Posted : Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:28:56 AM(UTC)
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AuroraAlphaHL2 wrote:

But if it was designed that way like Mic said, how is it a flaw, a bug, a stupid mistake from the developers, and a retarded error that EA ignores and is too lazy to fix?


Because I don't think it was designed like that. Noone paid attention in the other games either so they just didn't care about it, and so on didn't do anything about it.
Would like to hear in a podcast or something if they are even aware of this and what exuses they have.
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