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Offline Gameanater  
#1 Posted : Friday, February 6, 2015 3:20:32 PM(UTC)
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I'm bored, so i'm going to do a little harmless rant on the Boss General of Zero Hour, General Leang.

Leang is quite possibly... No, most definitely, the single most bizarre and lazily-made general in the entire game.

She has the weirdest combination of units you could ever think of.

She has even worse economy management than China.

And she is single-handedly the most defenseless general in early game



That's it. I just wanted to say that.

Don't believe me?

This video by a dead YouTube user proves it aaaallll.... xD
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Offline klingondragon  
#2 Posted : Friday, February 6, 2015 5:21:24 PM(UTC)
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She was never meant to be a single general originally there were three boss generals (one for each faction) however, as we all know, this game was rushed hence the amalgamation of units and buildings.
Personally I liked her when I was younger (8 or 9 ish) and when I started modding enabling and fixing her is what I concentrated on but I could never get her to a point I was happy with her
I think I may replace her with a better boss general and because i will use all the same names she should work in generals challenge as long as I only change the design, art, and engineering parameters.

If people would like to suggest ways of improving her please tell me and I'll try to make it work just as soon as I get the laptop back off my parents.
Offline Gameanater  
#3 Posted : Friday, February 6, 2015 5:48:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post
If people would like to suggest ways of improving her please tell me and I'll try to make it work just as soon as I get the laptop back off my parents.


Heheh...



-- Laser defenses for all aircraft
-- Countermeasures for all aircraft
-- BaseRegenerate behavior for ALL buildings
-- Lower-costing superweapons. Like maybe 2000 instead of the regular price if we're just giving her the vanilla SupW's.
-- SUPER HACKER. SHE NEEDS IT. She has SUCH a bad money issue.
-- All vehicles Horde

That's all my brain can think of ATM.

Edited by user Saturday, February 7, 2015 11:08:09 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

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thanks 1 user thanked Gameanater for this useful post.
SUPER-G on 2/6/2015(UTC)
Offline Annihilationzh  
#4 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 2:38:55 AM(UTC)
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How and why do you think boss general is bad?

Have you looked at her tech tree? She has EARLY GAME OVERLORDS AND ROCKET BUGGIES!

She doesn't even need to worry about late game. She's already won.
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Offline klingondragon  
#5 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:28:16 AM(UTC)
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The only changes I ever made were to her generals abilities (moving them to different ranks (eg pathfinder at 3 not 1)) and giving her Humvees
I found when i played as her all I was using were overlords and I found it pretty easy to Wi but I can see why others may not like it
Offline Gameanater  
#6 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 11:07:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Annihilationzh Go to Quoted Post
How and why do you think boss general is bad?

-- Horrible economy issues (I'll get to that in a minute)
-- There is no point in capturing a Tech Reinforcement pad with her because nothing is ever paradropped with that.
-- Most bizarre combination of units imaginable leading to no focus on any specific tactics. (which, though it sounds nice to be that "flexable", too many choices is actually not a good thing... It impares your ability to quickly decide on what to do with you have 12 choices for one action as opposed to 3 choices for one action, for example.)
-Tomahawk is tied for the worst artillery in-game because it's worthless when an enemy has an Avenger.
-Sentry Drone? Why? Why not a Listening Outpost?
-Angry Mob? WHAT FOR?
-Rangers? RANGERS? We don't need no stinkin' Rangers when we have MINI-GUNNERS in-game!
-Where are my Chinooks, and why do I have these Supply Trucks if we're supposed to be the ultimate badass overpowered boss with the best of the best of the best?
-Paladins as a main tank force? A group of cheaper and faster to pump out Battlemasters with HORDE will own any Paladin force with no problems.
-No Fuel Air Auroras? Odd.
-Terrorist Bikes (with, for the some reason, the Rocket Buggy voice)? Vanilla Terrorist Bikes, no less? No thanks.
-- Lack of BASIC UPGRADES for several of her units...
- King Raptor is stuck with regular damage missiles and no countermeasures
-No countermeasures for her Aurora either.


Originally Posted by: Annihilationzh Go to Quoted Post
Have you looked at her tech tree? She has EARLY GAME OVERLORDS AND ROCKET BUGGIES!


Which you can't pump out unless you have the cash set as high as possible or something because she has the WORST economy issues of any of the generals.

She uses STANDARD Hackers for her unlimited money resource, and no Internet Center or anything. It wouldn't be quite as bad if they we either trained two at a time or were Super Hackers, which are stealthed and can defend the base in emergancies with their ability to shut off vehicles.

She's even worse than Chinese factions with money resource because she's the only "Chinese" general who's Hackers can't be protected in an Internet Center (which was still expensive for China).

Again, if they were stealthed Super Hackers, she would have a lot less trouble being able to hold onto her cash generators because they were stealthed.



And again, her tech tree, it's made of the most bizarre unit combinations anyone could ever dream of. Doesn't help that so much of her force is really expensive when she already has a huge problem hanging onto her infinite money resource.

Originally Posted by: Annihilationzh Go to Quoted Post
She doesn't even need to worry about late game. She's already won.


No, she hasn't, she's already been crippled from the lack of funds, especially in matches without $50000 starting cash, because she's lost all her Hackers to snipers, toxins, blah blah blah, and her force can't be upgraded much at all without her expensive superweapons being built... Which, she can't afford.



Boss General is so underpowered.... xD
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Offline klingondragon  
#7 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 11:17:05 AM(UTC)
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It sounds like all your problems with her stem from money
Simply reduce prices and maybe move other stuff about and I can't see what your problems are
If the hackers bother you change them
If the upgrades aren't there add them

Your a modder, GO AND MOD!
Offline Gameanater  
#8 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:10:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post
It sounds like all your problems with her stem from money

That, and her REALLY weird set of units.
Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post
Simply reduce prices and maybe move other stuff about and I can't see what your problems are

Did you not see "really bizarre combination of units"? lol Tongue
Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post
If the hackers bother you change them

Exactly what I plan to do.
Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post
If the upgrades aren't there add them

I'm doing that. Heheh.
Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post
Your a modder, GO AND MOD!


*Ahem*
*You're. :P

And, wow, you're in a mean mood today. xD
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Offline klingondragon  
#9 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:18:53 PM(UTC)
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Not mean just blunt
And my phone took yourr as your not you're.
Offline Gameanater  
#10 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:23:15 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post
Your a modder, GO AND MOD!


Speaking of which, actually, here is some the stuff I'm doing and plan to do to make the Boss General awesome:


-- All infantry are trained two at a time.
-- Ranger uses pulse rifle, which the Superweapons General also does. (Done)
-- Reduced prices for superweapons
-- Super Hacker
-- Paladin does not require a General's Point, can Horde, is built as a veteran, costs the same as a Battlemaster, and uses the three-shot Battlemaster weapon of the Tank General. (Done!)
-- More upgrades; Countermeasures, Junk Repair, etc (In progress)
-- ALL buildings self-repair slowly (Almost done)
-- USA Humvees replace the nonsense vanilla GLA Terror Bike with Rocket Buggy voice. (Done, but subject to change to a differant version of the Humvee.)
-- Junk Repair for all vehicles
-- Many of the units will still exist, but will be combined with the functions of other faction's units.
-Stealth MiG. A combination of Granger's Stealth Fighter and the MiG. Laser defenses, Countermeasures, and uses the Stealth Fighter's CommandSet. (Done_
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Offline klingondragon  
#11 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:26:50 PM(UTC)
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The all infantry trained twice I never got to work
I can only ever get one lot of infantry trained twice
Offline Gameanater  
#12 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:33:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post
The all infantry trained twice I never got to work
I can only ever get one lot of infantry trained twice


Really? Works for me...

Code:
  Behavior = ProductionUpdate ModuleTag_10
    QuantityModifier = Boss_InfantryRanger   2
    QuantityModifier = Boss_InfantryTankHunter 2
    QuantityModifier = Boss_InfantryHacker 3
    QuantityModifier = Boss_InfantryPathfinder 2
    QuantityModifier = Boss_InfantryAngryMobNexus 2
  End
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Offline klingondragon  
#13 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:36:49 PM(UTC)
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Ok
I made one module for each unit
I'll try that as soon as I get use of a laptop
Offline Gameanater  
#14 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:40:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post

I made one module for each unit


That is redundant and i can't imagine that working.

Heheh

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Offline klingondragon  
#15 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:45:55 PM(UTC)
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With some modules you make multiple ones I guess I didn't think very hard when I did it
Then again I was falling asleep at the time
Offline Gameanater  
#16 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:48:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post
With some modules you make multiple ones I guess I didn't think very hard when I did it


Like which ones?

Originally Posted by: KlingonDragon Go to Quoted Post
Then again I was falling asleep at the time


lol. xD

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Offline klingondragon  
#17 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 12:52:19 PM(UTC)
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I think the USA frone and overlord ocls have multiples and I'm pretty sure some units have two or more art modules
Offline Annihilationzh  
#18 Posted : Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:38:50 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
-- There is no point in capturing a Tech Reinforcement pad with her because nothing is ever paradropped with that.

Tech pads are barely relevant to balancing. They're slow and don't provide anything useful unless you're infantry general.

Quote:
-- Most bizarre combination of units imaginable leading to no focus on any specific tactics. (which, though it sounds nice to be that "flexable", too many choices is actually not a good thing... It impares your ability to quickly decide on what to do with you have 12 choices for one action as opposed to 3 choices for one action, for example.)

Diverse units is a good thing. It makes the general unpredictable, which is extremely powerful in a strategy game. You really shouldn't attempt to argue that your difficulties with having many options is a balancing issue, because it isn't.

Quote:
-Tomahawk is tied for the worst artillery in-game because it's worthless when an enemy has an Avenger.

She has rocket buggies. The tomahawk is irrelevant.

Quote:
-Angry Mob? WHAT FOR?

Angry mobs are good against GLA generals.

Quote:
-Rangers? RANGERS? We don't need no stinkin' Rangers when we have MINI-GUNNERS in-game!

Why does this matter? How powerful do you want the boss general to be? She's already far more powerful than any other general in the game. She doesn't need the most overpowered units from every faction.

Quote:
-Where are my Chinooks, and why do I have these Supply Trucks if we're supposed to be the ultimate badass overpowered boss with the best of the best of the best?

That's not a balancing issue, and she has Helixes. Chinooks are also not the best supply collectors.

Best of the best is supposed to be the base factions. The king raptor is an anomaly. She's not intended to be a general with all the powers of every general.

Quote:
-Paladins as a main tank force? A group of cheaper and faster to pump out Battlemasters with HORDE will own any Paladin force with no problems.

Overlords are her main tank force, not Paladins. Paladins are a counter to scorpions. Overlords are a counter to tanks.

Quote:
Which you can't pump out unless you have the cash set as high as possible or something because she has the WORST economy issues of any of the generals.

She has a supply center. It's not difficult for her to pump out units early game, which gives her a massive advantage because she has late game units available early game. In a pro game, she has already won at this point. To further defeat this point, she has tunnel networks, which allow her to defend her hackers by instantly transporting her armies.

In a noob game, her hackers being weak is irrelevant; noobs build hundreds of hackers.
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Offline Gameanater  
#19 Posted : Sunday, February 8, 2015 10:39:44 AM(UTC)
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Tech pads are barely relevant to balancing. They're slow and don't provide anything useful unless you're infantry general.
Quote:



Tank General gets his epic three-shot Battlemaster. Demolitions General gets two Terrorist Combat Cycles which deal more damage than a vanilla version does, especially with the Demolitions Ability purchased. :P



I will agree though, that it’s slow.


Diverse units is a good thing. It makes the general unpredictable, which is extremely powerful in a strategy game. You really shouldn't attempt to argue that your difficulties with having many options is a balancing issue, because it isn't.
Quote:



True, actually, not going to even try to counter the second point. xD


Diversity can be good, I agree, but this leads to another problem I have with her; the fact that some of her units are slightly butchered versions of existing units from other factions, or isn’t really as useful as I would think it should be.

King Raptor can’t use Countermeasures. (And for some reason uses the regular Raptor’s voice set…) It ALSO can’t upgrade with Laser-Guided Missiles, despite what its selection Cameo says.

Aurora can’t upgrade with Countermeasures, and doesn’t even have laser defenses to TRY to compensate.



Tunnel Network can’t be Camo Netted, because that ability was sacrificed for very circumstantially useful Mines… And, for some reason, it spawns the same RPG Troopers when she’s using Tank Hunters as her missile force. Logic??


Rocket Buggies can’t be upgraded with Junk Repair… Despite what their upgrade cameos would suggest.


Why does this matter? How powerful do you want the boss general to be? She's already far more powerful than any other general in the game. She doesn't need the most overpowered units from every faction.
Quote:

Even if we aren’t going to take the best of the best from all the other factions, I still say that a group of Red Guards, with Horde, trained two at a time, will split Rangers in half because of their numbers. Unless you start combining other abilities with the Ranger (which was actually done to a very limited extent by giving her infantry Chem Suits and her vehicles Composite Armor), by making him trained two at a time, and giving him Horde (or even just making him trained two at a time), I guarantee you Leang’s Rangers will be owned by a squad of Red Guards through superior numbers alone, or even a equally-numbered group of Mini-Gunners (equally numbered because for some reason the Infantry General trains them one at a time)



That's not a balancing issue, and she has Helixes. Chinooks are also not the best supply collectors.
Quote:

Helixes are slower and are less likely to escape the firing range of anti-air when transporting precious dozers to other areas of the map. The Chinook has less armor, but since it’s faster it has a better chance of, A) Outdistancing rockets (best case scenario, not overly likely), or B) Taking the least amount of fire from anti-air because it retreats faster. Not to mention that A) Chinooks can use Countermeasures for rockets (although for some reason Leang doesn’t have Countermeasures), and if you’re Granger they can block a few rockets with lasers (assuming I’m not just remembering this for only the Combat Chinook)


Being faster can be better than being beefier when transporting stuff in this game, IMHO.



Also, regarding supplies, Chinooks bring in the most amount of cash per drop-off to the Supply Center/Stash out of the Supply Trucks and Workers. Supply Truck is below that of a Chinook and a Worker brings in the least amount of cash at once.


Chinooks also double as a fast transport.



Best of the best is supposed to be the base factions. The King Raptor is an exception. She's not intended to be a general with all the powers of every general.
Quote:



Even if that’s actually true, then it’s not true.


Sentry Drones are in no way better than a Listening Outpost or a Troop Crawler (or an Assault Troop Crawler). Heck, I’d even argue that a Radar Van could be better than a Sentry Drone because it provides Radar, and if you’re Juhziz it can double as a vehicular Terrorist. Sentry Drone can attack, but only after an upgrade and it takes a second and a half to carry out the order.



I would argue that a Battlemaster is better than a Paladin because it costs less and can Horde, and a group of Hording Battlemasters will pwn a battalion of Paladins (especially if you’re going with a Nukemaster (my affectionate term for Tao’s variant) or the epic three-shot Kwai version.)



Tomahawks are arguably worse than a SCUD Launcher because of the lack of the anthrax or high-explosive bonus and that they both are worthless against Avengers, and are certainly inferior to an Inferno Cannon and Rocket Buggy (and the General has the Rocket Buggy.) They could also be worse than a Nuke Cannon, since the Nuke Cannon can use Neutron Shells, even though it takes a bit to deploy.
(And yes, I did read what you said about the Tomahawks earlier.)


Rangers will get mauled by Red Guards because of the superior numbers and Horde, and require Flash Bangs to effectively fight them. (Which, since we’ve already given all her infantry Chem Suits, why not give the Red Guards Flashbangs while we’re at it… lol) Rebels can at least be stealthed with an upgrade to boost their usefulness a little more.


I wouldn’t go with an overly-fragile self-killing-by-running Angry Mob over vanilla Terrorists, or something else.



I wouldn’t go for a single Terrorist Combat Cycle (with the Rocket Buggy’s voice no less) if it meant I could have… I don’t know, a Battle Bus? A Humvee? She doesn’t have a fast ground transport to begin with anyway!


I also wouldn’t strip down my existing units by keeping my Tunnel Networks from stealthing, and leaving my USA air force unprotected from missiles (the King Raptor barely counts, it at least keeps the lasers)


Overlords are her main tank force, not Paladins. Paladins are a counter to scorpions. Overlords are a counter to tanks.
Quote:



… I’m confused, if the Overlords are her main tank force and are a counter to tanks… Why aren’t they a counter to Scorpions?



I could actually see why, the Paladins kill the Scorpion Missile.



But so does her Avenger…



So then the Paladin has a very tiny role in her army…



That seems strange.




Also, the Overlord is singlehandedly the most expensive tank in the game… And it’s the tank that takes the longest to produce, so...



Not only that, it’s super slow doing anything. Sure, it’s pretty powerful, but I find my Overlords get torn fairly quickly by squads of Tank Hunters, and large groups of other tanks.




To me, if it was supposed to be her main force, then it’d be where the Paladin is on the War Factory’s Command Set.




She has a supply center. It's not difficult for her to pump out units early game, which gives her a massive advantage because she has late game units available early game. In a pro game, she has already won at this point. To further defeat this point, she has tunnel networks, which allow her to defend her hackers by instantly transporting her armies.
Quote:




Her apparent main tank force, Overlords as you said, are so expensive to pump out, along with that a lot of her forces aren’t very cheap to make. She’ll burn through her cash faster than she gets it..



As for transporting the Hackers in Tunnel Networks like that, good luck waiting for them to take their jolly time. They take FOREVER to pack their stuff up when you tell to stop hacking for cash, so unless you are viciously defending them with everything you can while they’re packing up, they’ll get torn apart by bullets or melted by a Toxin Tractor or something before they can ever GET to the Tunnel Network.



If they were Super Hackers, stealthed and with vehicle disabling abilities, and the vet bonus, then I’d have a lot less of a problem I think even with no Internet Center. If they stayed as vanilla Hackers, without the Internet Center, then I’d think they should be trained two at a time at the very least. As it is now, they’re too freaking venerable in the world of Zero Hour.


You also can’t build hundreds of Hackers if you can’t afford to train them, because they’re expensive AND Leang already burns through all of her cash within 4 and half minutes.




So… My biggest problems with Leang is just that she has such a nonsense unit combination, which is next to impossible to use effectively, and that she’s going to being dumping her cash in a shredder when she’s building those units.


Leang also has stripped-down versions of existing units, no less.




Try to rule the air? Get your planes shot down because they are pretty defenseless against anti-air.


Tank rush? Good luck, Paladins are too expensive to mass-produce, let alone Overlords, and the Gattling and Dragon Tanks are way too fragile.



Other vehicles? Might work, but it’ll be pretty hard since they’re expensive and have less health.



Infantry rush? Rangers don’t work as well as Red Guards for swarming people.


And good luck with your money… Heheh.


Better to be able to do a couple tactics well than to be able to be able to use a million different strategies with mediocre results.
Any old friends still on here can add me on discord @jcdenton2187. I'm far more likely to respond there.
Offline Gameanater  
#20 Posted : Sunday, February 8, 2015 10:41:43 AM(UTC)
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Agh, great, I screwed up the Quoting....
Any old friends still on here can add me on discord @jcdenton2187. I'm far more likely to respond there.
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